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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle you know there's explanation

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for everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident that doesn't

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involve aliens at all it was completely

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silent it comes right over our head it's

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so classic flying-saucer really standing

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in the clearing he turned over to my

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father and held his hand and he looked

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welcome to podcast UFO for our live show

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we're live every Wednesday at on the

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Dark Matter radio network please

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remember to visit the website podcast

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UFO comm for past episodes blogs and

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forums during the show feel free to

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participate live in our chat room and

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don't forget to Like us on our very

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active Facebook page hello and welcome

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to the show on Martin Willis your host

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we're coming at you live like every

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Wednesday at 9 p.m. Eastern Standard

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Time on the dark matter radio network

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just a quick note Stanton T Friedman is

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home from the hospital and he's doing

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quite well so we expect a good recovery

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from him and if you're listening live

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you may want to jump in our chat room

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which is right on podcast UFO comm you

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know we have an extraordinary show for

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you this evening and you've never heard

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you say that before have you our guest

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for the evening a little bit later on is

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Nick Redfern he's going to be talking

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about his recent book Close Encounters

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of the fatal kind and you've probably

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heard about the Chilean government's

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recent report on the there stating their

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analysis on two pictures showing UFOs

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it's a great breaking story and I'm

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excited to say for the first part of the

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show we have investigative journalists

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who I'm sure you all know out there

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Leslie Kane and joining us from the

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Chilean government's agency

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sefa is which stands for committee for

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the studies of anomalous aerial

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phenomena in Spanish course is Jose Lai

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and welcome to the show both Lesley and

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Jose thanks Martin great to be here

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thank you yeah yes I got to meet you

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both last year and really enjoyed the

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company of you both

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and Leslie I want to congratulate you

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first for breaking this breaking this

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great story and please if you would give

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us a summary of it what and what has

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happened since this came hot off the

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press so to speak okay well just in a

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nutshell for people who haven't read it

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and by the way they can go to

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huffingtonpost.com and just put my name

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in there or go to my Facebook page and

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there's a link to the story but

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basically what it is is that some very

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sophisticated technical employees at a

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mine in northern Chile spent about over

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an hour

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viewing a UFO in the sky there were four

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of them and witnessed it and it did all

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kinds of manoeuvres and hovered and and

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went up and down back and forth and they

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there were two pictures that they took

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now these people didn't want have

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anything to do with this publicly and so

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they just kept the pictures of

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themselves a few months later one of

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them showed the images to an engineer at

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the mine it was very impressed with them

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asked for copies and sent two photos to

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the sefa

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because this engine you knew that this

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was the government agency that was

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responsible for dealing with UFO issues

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in the country this is a official agency

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and they decided after having eliminated

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all possible explanations conventional

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explanations for this and being a

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government agency they have the

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capability of getting data on any any

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type of data that they need in order to

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determine whether something has an

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explanation so they did a very thorough

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analysis of that level and discovered

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that there really was no explanation for

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this and then they decided to have the

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pictures analyzed and just last week the

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sefa released the analysis by a

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technician a technician on of there's a

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technical expert at the connector with

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the sefa who did an analysis and put it

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they made this public and so I was of

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course when it became public I was very

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interested in getting the word out to

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the mainstream and that's when I did the

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story but that's essentially what the

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story is and people need to go on to the

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site to actually see the pictures and

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what has happened since this thing has

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come out well it's there's been kind of

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a firestorm I mean

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I'm quite surprised actually about the

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reaction the the story on the Huffington

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Post has received more than 1 million

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reader views so far I mean the limit I'm

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way over a million a million hundred

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thousand or something like that

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and there's lots of other media that's

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picked it up it's been on Fox News it's

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been on a major newspaper in the UK a

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major venue in Australia every just

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about every blog out there that you know

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deals with UFOs it's picked it up so

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it's just getting a lot of attention and

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I'm kind of surprised but I think why

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it's important is that we have an actual

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government of a country that has

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released these photographs and has made

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the statement that they are a UFO

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meaning something unexplained but for a

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government of a country to come out and

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say that is is a significant thing and

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it doesn't happen very often and we'll

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talk about a little of the question up

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on the chatroom we'll talk a little bit

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later about the more or less summary of

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the findings but one of the things that

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occurred to me as as I was reading this

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is often you hear about UFOs near like

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large mineral deposits and and I I'm not

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going to say any type of speculation why

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that is but do you know if this is a

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one-time sighting Jose no it is not just

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a one-time sighting we have we call you

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ap does exist coming from our pilots

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military and civilians radar data we

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have so many cases that actually leave

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no shadow of a doubt that something is

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going on that the phenomenon does exist

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so well we were obviously very curious

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about this case this particular case

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because we usually concentrate on

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our aeronautical sightings not much

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civilian sightings but this this this

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particular case was really interesting

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and we thought it was worth study so

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they did you see but we'd never expected

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it to be - to become news actually Wow

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no I'm sorry for the confusion I meant

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is this a one-time sighting at this

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other sightings in different mines you

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know perhaps Chile's number one or

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number two in the world producing copper

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and silver we have three or four cases

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of different minds up there in the in

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nothing new yes yes and margin yes see

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one more thing sure go right ahead

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neglected to say a really important

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aspect about this case is that these

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were daylight sightings and I guess for

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people who haven't looked at the I mean

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this was the pictures were taken at

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around noon and bright clear skies and

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the skies in northern Chile are among

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the clearest cleanest skies in the world

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and they're just crystal clear but the

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fact that they were daylight saving

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sightings is really important as the

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pictures are very good and one of them

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shows and actually sort of because it's

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noon the Sun is pretty much directly

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above the object and one of them has

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this very bottom kind of a half sphere

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coming out at the bottom of the object

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which is illuminated brilliantly

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it seems to be that this illumination

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comes from within the object rather

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because the Sun is above it it's not

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just the doctor's reflecting the Sun you

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can see rays of light coming out from

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along the sides of the object so it's

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really quite a striking picture but I

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just wanted to mention about the

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daylight part because that's really

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important yeah and this thing was flying

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around for and hovering for about an

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hour which is amazing and it's great now

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more than an hour it's great to see

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really clear pictures instead of you

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know a lot of times you know people that

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are skeptic out there you know say why

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are the pictures always blurry well

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these aren't these are great pictures

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and let's see up on the message board

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anyone can join the message board it's

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as if you're listening live it's really

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easy to join it's just two clicks and

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it's on podcast UFO calm and up on the

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message board someone is asking is she

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but it can address either one of you I'm

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going to give a summary of the findings

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Jose would you like to address that yes

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do I have to give you my my mail or

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something like that okay let me let me

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put it a different way can you give what

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type of research went into this and what

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did you discover as you're researching

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oh yes of course first of all there was

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the Imperial City and we decided and

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first of all I think I have to explain

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how our committee works mm-hmm now we

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have a what we might call a steady

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committee of people that are always at

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the Sahara office we have our one

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director which is a retired Air Force

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general you know regard over mutants

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then we have a person in charge of

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national affairs army Church of

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International Affairs we're a secretary

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but behind us we have a panel of

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scientists is I think we have now 16 of

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them doctorates in different disciplines

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from different universities including

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national price in science we have also

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to astronomers that are very well known

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all over the world one of them has an

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another one that has discovered many new

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galaxies so we have a whole scientific

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panel behind us on top of that we have

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each of the branches of the armed forces

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air force navy army and police they also

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have lives on officers that report

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anything that happens that it is unusual

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to ask directly to our office so we can

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cover the whole country of anything that

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might be unusual to act that the people

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in Chile they don't know about our

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office and they report to us directly

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without having to to go to the

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newspapers or something it was things

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like that so we received these tunnel

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reports and those that are really

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extraordinary like in this case because

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Korea Wasi which is the case we are

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talking about it is a truly civilian

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case that has nothing to do with

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airspace or Aeronautics but it was so

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interesting that we decided to submit it

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to an analysis and the

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one of our analysts he concluded that it

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was actually a solid object UFO and

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that's how matter stands now mm-hmm

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listen you know we got we have some

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great questions coming up and I have

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some of my own as well that a question

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up here does Bruce Maccabee States in

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the article though the inability to

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question witnesses does reduce the

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credibility and the question is by

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chance does our guests know that means

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you Jose why they are unable to question

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the witnesses or if they'll be able to

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interview them at a later time well you

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have to be a Chilean professional in

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order to understand that and we do

275
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:19,610
understand the reluctance to to come

276
00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:24,890
forward and talk about it they really

277
00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:29,660
don't want any publicity they don't want

278
00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:39,380
their names to become known I mean they

279
00:14:48,430 --> 00:14:43,550
were not willing to show the evidence

280
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:48,440
and it was by accident that we we

281
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:52,250
received it that is the problem we try

282
00:14:59,500 --> 00:14:56,480
to contact them and they were very

283
00:15:03,310 --> 00:14:59,510
politely refused and they have all the

284
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:03,320
right to do so you know not to talk

285
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:06,230
about it the thing that just happened

286
00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:09,920
and that was it they want to forget all

287
00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:14,200
about it they are working in a mine and

288
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:18,230
they want to live their life their lives

289
00:15:25,540 --> 00:15:21,890
quietly they don't want the prayers the

290
00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:25,550
television to go up four thousand three

291
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:28,940
hundred meters above sea level to bother

292
00:15:34,390 --> 00:15:31,880
them that is the problem

293
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:34,400
we're so crunched for time and we're

294
00:15:39,250 --> 00:15:36,130
gonna stretch it a little bit further

295
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,260
what about the highest level authorities

296
00:15:46,390 --> 00:15:41,360
in the Chile government how are they

297
00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:46,400
responding to this Jose well in our case

298
00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:49,580
safer ah which is the committee of a

299
00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:53,860
studies of anomalous aerial phenomena or

300
00:16:02,140 --> 00:15:57,890
Highway Patrol Authority is the Minister

301
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:02,150
of Defense but we depend directly from

302
00:16:08,890 --> 00:16:06,010
the Air Force therefore our highest

303
00:16:14,890 --> 00:16:08,900
authority is the commander-in-chief of

304
00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:14,900
our Air Force and I would like to break

305
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:16,670
the news Chrigel

306
00:16:24,070 --> 00:16:21,110
made us very happy and very sad at the

307
00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:24,080
same time because the Air Force had

308
00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:29,480
named a very very nice person as a

309
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:33,800
representative of our Air Force to safar

310
00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:37,220
as a liaison officer and he now is

311
00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:43,220
retired to give us every information

312
00:16:52,780 --> 00:16:48,230
razor sighting of military pilot that

313
00:16:56,130 --> 00:16:52,790
had of anything which is anomalous to to

314
00:17:00,570 --> 00:16:56,140
sever and now there is a new

315
00:17:03,070 --> 00:17:00,580
high-ranking officer there's been named

316
00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:03,080
especially by the commander-in-chief of

317
00:17:11,650 --> 00:17:06,140
the Air Force to represent the Air Force

318
00:17:17,820 --> 00:17:11,660
to to our committee just as we have from

319
00:17:21,610 --> 00:17:17,830
the Navy the the army and the police

320
00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:21,620
civilian police like the FBI your

321
00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:27,560
equivalent our uniformed police so we

322
00:17:34,570 --> 00:17:31,430
covered the whole country anything that

323
00:17:36,970 --> 00:17:34,580
moves and we can detect it it

324
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:36,980
immediately goes into safar

325
00:17:43,250 --> 00:17:41,210
on top of that we have that 85% of our

326
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:43,260
population believe

327
00:17:51,789 --> 00:17:48,110
the there must be life outside our world

328
00:18:01,700 --> 00:17:51,799
and they also believe in the phenomena

329
00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:01,710
that actually exist you know would you

330
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:03,540
be willing to share what the

331
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:05,490
commander-in-chief's response has been

332
00:18:11,419 --> 00:18:08,160
you mentioned to me that the commander

333
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:11,429
in chief of the Air Force actually made

334
00:18:29,299 --> 00:18:23,799
we had to appear in several television

335
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:29,309
channels due to this case his particular

336
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:36,480
case and by coincidence the commander in

337
00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:39,650
chief so one of the problem programs

338
00:18:49,159 --> 00:18:46,070
television programs he instructed he

339
00:18:52,159 --> 00:18:49,169
suggested the DGSE

340
00:18:55,940 --> 00:18:52,169
director which is another general Air

341
00:19:00,890 --> 00:18:55,950
Force general in active duty to

342
00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:00,900
encourage the sofa to continue the good

343
00:19:08,299 --> 00:19:03,750
work we are doing and actually we're

344
00:19:11,030 --> 00:19:08,309
just doing a normal work mm-hmm boy I'll

345
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:11,040
tell you what I hope you know the only

346
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:13,530
hope that I can really have on this is

347
00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:16,799
that someone in the US is going to pay

348
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:20,100
attention to this and see how simple it

349
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:23,850
can be if if we could set up something

350
00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:26,370
like that in this country you know

351
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:29,400
because I really do believe that you

352
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:31,380
know when you're saying 85% of the

353
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:34,620
people yes understand that there's most

354
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:36,330
likely life on other planets I think

355
00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:38,880
that is that's kind of it it's I think

356
00:19:43,789 --> 00:19:40,700
that's going global

357
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:43,799
of course it with you know Kepler and

358
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:47,370
all the the findings they have out there

359
00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:50,130
we're we have just a few minutes to wrap

360
00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:54,120
this up before we have to bring in our

361
00:19:59,780 --> 00:19:56,100
other guests

362
00:20:01,850 --> 00:19:59,790
now is there anything that you can use

363
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:01,860
other breaking news you can give us

364
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:03,120
since the story has come out has

365
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:07,110
anything changed or or come up that is

366
00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:13,950
notable yes I would like to say that we

367
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:18,780
have sent the same material visual

368
00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:25,710
material to dr. Bruce Maccabee in the

369
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:31,590
United States to review it he accepted

370
00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:35,190
to take a look at it we are also sending

371
00:20:47,420 --> 00:20:39,630
the to Europe to France we are doing

372
00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:47,430
much which is a member of three AF sigma

373
00:20:59,950 --> 00:20:54,630
group in France and we is a group where

374
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:04,130
results and we're doing very objective

375
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:10,320
objective about it we're just trusting

376
00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:14,820
that the analysis is going to be well

377
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:17,780
our own specialists

378
00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:21,630
concluded and also we have called a

379
00:21:31,670 --> 00:21:26,840
general meeting with our scientists and

380
00:21:35,390 --> 00:21:31,680
the members of our different area forces

381
00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:35,400
the the Armed Forces they know that you

382
00:21:58,730 --> 00:21:40,920
know the two to reach a consensus about

383
00:22:01,520 --> 00:21:58,740
this case but what you in America called

384
00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:01,530
is no Ginga that is the only thing we

385
00:22:07,340 --> 00:22:05,700
need in Chile that's all mm-hmm just you

386
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:07,350
know we have one last question that's

387
00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:09,460
been up on the message board and that is

388
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:13,300
was there ever any radar of this that

389
00:22:22,620 --> 00:22:18,010
you're aware of you know okay but do we

390
00:22:25,380 --> 00:22:22,630
do have a but you may call UFO in

391
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:25,390
greater in several pieces it's just a

392
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:29,380
question of going into our webpage we

393
00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:33,090
have radar cases of course we have

394
00:22:37,530 --> 00:22:36,100
otherwise we will not be working right

395
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:37,540
can you will give out your website

396
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:46,290
address please yes triple w safe are Cl

397
00:22:57,900 --> 00:22:53,880
okay and that's CEF a a dot this and CL

398
00:23:00,180 --> 00:22:57,910
ccl4 Chile yes very good you know what

399
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:00,190
I'm gonna squeeze this last question in

400
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:02,710
are there specific places in Chile where

401
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,290
these UFOs are landing or ever seen

402
00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:07,360
landing has anyone ever noted one

403
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:13,380
landing yes we have a case reported by

404
00:23:24,150 --> 00:23:19,170
air traffic controller one of our

405
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:24,160
secondary airports is called doable lava

406
00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:29,130
cakes in addition our webpage there I

407
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:31,870
think I'm going to translate it into

408
00:23:37,530 --> 00:23:36,460
English and because it is really very

409
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:37,540
impressive

410
00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:40,960
they're very interesting he landed and

411
00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:43,750
then he took off again and the air

412
00:23:53,130 --> 00:23:46,470
traffic controller really describe it

413
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:53,140
however unfortunately this and safar did

414
00:24:02,070 --> 00:23:57,570
not existed at that time we also have

415
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:02,080
cases in Antarctica in the Antarctic

416
00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:06,250
continent in our bases there we also

417
00:24:16,980 --> 00:24:10,840
have in our cases for example if you're

418
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:16,990
going to into our webpage the when you

419
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:20,050
open the safe for our page you can hear

420
00:24:25,259 --> 00:24:22,610
a pile of saying I have a life

421
00:24:28,810 --> 00:24:25,269
in front of me do you have a traffic and

422
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:28,820
the air traffic controllers in no we

423
00:24:34,779 --> 00:24:31,610
don't have any traffic reported but I

424
00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:34,789
can see the light going right in front

425
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:38,390
of you wow that is so great

426
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:40,490
Leslie I want to congratulate you once

427
00:24:46,899 --> 00:24:43,039
again for such a wonderfully written

428
00:24:50,409 --> 00:24:46,909
article and also the visibility this is

429
00:24:55,629 --> 00:24:50,419
getting it's wonderful I feel honored to

430
00:24:58,860 --> 00:24:55,639
have you both on thank you so much all

431
00:25:02,049 --> 00:24:58,870
right we hope to have you back for sure

432
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:02,059
body and I would like to inform you also

433
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:06,080
that general Bermudez send you many

434
00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:11,510
greetings also and I he is our director

435
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:15,590
and he wanted me to to make a special

436
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:19,279
point of the fact that Leslie King

437
00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:25,039
she she's our fish spokesperson in the

438
00:25:31,629 --> 00:25:29,630
United States wonderful yes Leslie we

439
00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:31,639
all really appreciate that thank you

440
00:25:35,919 --> 00:25:34,190
both so much and it's time we're gonna

441
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:35,929
have to drop out with you and bring our

442
00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:42,799
guests in hey great to talk to you talk

443
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:46,460
to you soon bye bye bye alright now

444
00:25:51,370 --> 00:25:48,769
we're gonna bring in our guest Nick

445
00:25:55,870 --> 00:25:51,380
Redfern and we have to do this the

446
00:25:59,950 --> 00:25:55,880
old-fashioned way and the phone is

447
00:26:07,799 --> 00:25:59,960
dialing so that was pretty exciting and

448
00:26:14,919 --> 00:26:13,029
hello hello Nick how are you yeah thanks

449
00:26:16,539 --> 00:26:14,929
so much for joining us again we had you

450
00:26:19,570 --> 00:26:16,549
back I don't know a number of months ago

451
00:26:20,769 --> 00:26:19,580
and during our conversation you

452
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:20,779
mentioned this book you are writing

453
00:26:27,070 --> 00:26:23,330
which is called Close Encounters of the

454
00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:27,080
fatal kind so so thanks so much for for

455
00:26:32,139 --> 00:26:30,049
joining us and and it's quite a book

456
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:32,149
I've been in it for the light to admit

457
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:34,610
I'm not the fastest reader out there so

458
00:26:39,670 --> 00:26:36,530
but I did

459
00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:39,680
I'd get through it I just have a lot

460
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:43,790
going on is what it is so you know it's

461
00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:47,930
not really a real upbeat or enlightening

462
00:26:52,420 --> 00:26:50,150
topic but it's one that needed to be

463
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:52,430
addressed and I'm glad you wrote the

464
00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:55,120
book can you tell the listening audience

465
00:27:03,070 --> 00:26:58,490
how you came about the topic what made

466
00:27:04,930 --> 00:27:03,080
you decide to write this book well when

467
00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:04,940
you sort of write in a book on any

468
00:27:09,310 --> 00:27:08,180
subject and you know people gonna go out

469
00:27:11,470 --> 00:27:09,320
and buy it you want to be able to give

470
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:11,480
them something new you know just go over

471
00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:14,960
all ground and so that's sort of one of

472
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:16,310
the main things I always think about

473
00:27:23,410 --> 00:27:18,710
when I'm writing a book what hasn't been

474
00:27:26,140 --> 00:27:23,420
done before in book format and it kind

475
00:27:28,780 --> 00:27:26,150
of surprised me I guess nobody had

476
00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:28,790
really done a full length book on all

477
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:31,790
the sort of various unexplained deaths

478
00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:34,250
and mysterious and suspicious deaths a

479
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:37,040
new follow G from the forties to the

480
00:27:40,750 --> 00:27:38,330
present day you know there were sort of

481
00:27:42,190 --> 00:27:40,760
people written maybe a chapter or an

482
00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:42,200
article here they're on the online

483
00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:43,940
whatever but there never been a full

484
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:45,470
then study of the whole thing so that

485
00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:47,630
was that was basically the reason for

486
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:50,180
doing it that's to bring something new

487
00:27:55,870 --> 00:27:52,610
and to demonstrate to people it's not

488
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:55,880
just you know a bunch of paranoid

489
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:57,440
rubbish or whatever that there actually

490
00:28:03,490 --> 00:28:00,320
are some genuine or lots of genuinely

491
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,500
weird deaths within ufology and many of

492
00:28:09,250 --> 00:28:05,120
them people just don't know about

493
00:28:11,170 --> 00:28:09,260
haven't heard about and so you know to

494
00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:11,180
help inform people just just put it out

495
00:28:16,390 --> 00:28:14,390
there right now I had I believe I spoke

496
00:28:18,580 --> 00:28:16,400
to you about this as well I had talked

497
00:28:21,370 --> 00:28:18,590
to Peter Robbins about this subject

498
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:21,380
subject quite a while ago and it was

499
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:22,880
something he was contemplating as well

500
00:28:28,930 --> 00:28:25,810
so your timeout was your timing was good

501
00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:28,940
but they're not a Peter did a very good

502
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,360
paper on James forrestal's death the

503
00:28:36,790 --> 00:28:34,640
first secretary of defense I remember me

504
00:28:40,210 --> 00:28:36,800
to gave a lecture on it I think about 10

505
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:40,220
years ago at Brian woods UFO crash

506
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:43,310
retrieval conference in Vegas poet 2003

507
00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:48,050
2004 something like that so and I mean

508
00:28:51,670 --> 00:28:49,040
that

509
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:51,680
loan you know somebody maybe paid I mean

510
00:28:56,770 --> 00:28:52,910
that could be the subject of an entire

511
00:28:58,780 --> 00:28:56,780
book the Forrestal death and you know so

512
00:29:02,170 --> 00:28:58,790
many twists and turns in that case yes I

513
00:29:04,060 --> 00:29:02,180
did I got more than halfway through the

514
00:29:08,350 --> 00:29:04,070
book so I did read through that and that

515
00:29:10,330 --> 00:29:08,360
is an unusual case where he's he's left

516
00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:10,340
alone for a few minutes and toss but he

517
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:11,750
had a fear of heights and you know I

518
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,440
mean he and it's right in the CIA and

519
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:17,840
how to assassinate the kind of the same

520
00:29:20,670 --> 00:29:19,190
thing that happened to him more or less

521
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:20,680
do you want to go into that a little bit

522
00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:23,690
well yeah sure well James Forrestal was

523
00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:26,360
the first US Secretary of Defense and he

524
00:29:31,870 --> 00:29:29,870
was appointed to that position in 1947

525
00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:31,880
by President Harry Truman there was

526
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:34,420
obviously the president at the time

527
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:37,310
there in a lot of stories and accounts

528
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:39,550
within the UFO field that after

529
00:29:43,660 --> 00:29:41,750
Forrestal was appointed secretary of

530
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:43,670
defense that he received this sort of

531
00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:45,770
classified briefing on the UFO subject

532
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:49,670
and essentially what was known about the

533
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:52,490
subject at that time and bear in mind

534
00:29:58,510 --> 00:29:55,010
that the the Kenneth Arnold site in

535
00:30:00,100 --> 00:29:58,520
Roswell with June and July 47 and forest

536
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:00,110
still got the job in September so there

537
00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:02,720
was only sort of seven or eight with

538
00:30:07,930 --> 00:30:06,350
weeks worth of material to brief him on

539
00:30:10,540 --> 00:30:07,940
so the product wasn't that much even

540
00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:10,550
though it was still very significant now

541
00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:14,990
Forrestal was a very clever sort of

542
00:30:21,070 --> 00:30:18,430
insightful guy who was good at sort of

543
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:21,080
sizing up situations you know he was

544
00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:23,210
previously the secretary the Navy and

545
00:30:28,390 --> 00:30:25,400
someone who during the Second World War

546
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:28,400
I was responsible for a lot of good work

547
00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:32,090
you know helping the war effort the only

548
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:34,400
downside with Forrestal what he was a

549
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:37,490
very emotional person which isn't

550
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:39,410
necessarily the best thing I guess when

551
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:43,250
you're Secretary of Defense he had a lot

552
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:46,550
of sort of self doubts and his

553
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:48,650
relationship with his wife suffered they

554
00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:52,670
had they were sort of you know just not

555
00:30:56,740 --> 00:30:54,500
well so two together after a while but

556
00:30:58,810 --> 00:30:56,750
they stayed together so a lot of things

557
00:31:00,820 --> 00:30:58,820
going on the background now

558
00:31:03,610 --> 00:31:00,830
there's a story that when Forrester was

559
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,620
briefed on the UFO subjects he had a lot

560
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:05,600
of trouble dealing with it that he

561
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:07,370
caused him like a lot of stress and

562
00:31:13,660 --> 00:31:11,330
anxiety the implication being that he

563
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:13,670
was the briefing was filled with a lot

564
00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:16,130
of disturbing material that most of us

565
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:17,630
don't know about and you know that could

566
00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:20,090
well be in the case but rather than sort

567
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:22,550
of dealing with it you know ill at the

568
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:24,080
height of the Cold War everybody dealt

569
00:31:28,450 --> 00:31:25,970
with the fact that the Russians could

570
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,460
kill us any day you know either with a

571
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:30,080
nuclear war

572
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:32,450
he didn't kind of just put it to the

573
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,650
back of his mind and get on with his job

574
00:31:38,530 --> 00:31:36,080
the story is that he just obsessed him

575
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:38,540
to the point where he plunged into like

576
00:31:46,390 --> 00:31:41,210
a complete nervous collapse essentially

577
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:46,400
and what happened was in March 1949 he

578
00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:48,890
was admitted to the Bethesda Naval

579
00:31:55,780 --> 00:31:52,520
Hospital in Maryland with essentially a

580
00:32:00,580 --> 00:31:55,790
huge stress and this psychological

581
00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:00,590
collapse and the in there until his

582
00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:05,180
death in May 1949 maybe 22nd and by all

583
00:32:13,270 --> 00:32:09,500
accounts he matanda was in there which

584
00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:13,280
was on the 16th floor he made a great

585
00:32:19,690 --> 00:32:15,920
deal of progress to the extent that by

586
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:19,700
late April he was sort of essentially

587
00:32:26,770 --> 00:32:22,850
back to normal he had a military guard

588
00:32:28,390 --> 00:32:26,780
in there who florestal had actually said

589
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:28,400
look when I come out here I want you as

590
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:31,100
my personal chauffeur and he got plans

591
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:33,440
for a new job and you know didn't sound

592
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:36,170
like a man who was every age of suicide

593
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:38,000
or was just sort of curled up in the

594
00:32:42,850 --> 00:32:40,310
corner of the room crying or whatever

595
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,860
he'd actually sort of come through this

596
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:44,960
dark period yeah a lot of people in

597
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:47,450
their lives have experiences like that

598
00:32:52,450 --> 00:32:49,370
and they come out the other end and

599
00:32:54,820 --> 00:32:52,460
that's what he did and I mean he was

600
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:54,830
eating well you know Sheridan shave it

601
00:33:00,820 --> 00:32:56,450
he wasn't just sort of not looking after

602
00:33:03,610 --> 00:33:00,830
himself now one of the other stories

603
00:33:06,850 --> 00:33:03,620
that's very surrendering within the UFO

604
00:33:09,820 --> 00:33:06,860
field is that there were paper on the

605
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:09,830
inside who felt that Forrestal was a

606
00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:12,530
potential security risk

607
00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:14,390
he decided to blow the whistle on what

608
00:33:21,310 --> 00:33:17,150
he knew about the UFO subjects ie to the

609
00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:21,320
media and to the general public and so

610
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:23,140
one of the theories is that he was

611
00:33:28,350 --> 00:33:26,570
essentially taken to Bethesda not just

612
00:33:30,730 --> 00:33:28,360
for his own good but so he couldn't

613
00:33:33,310 --> 00:33:30,740
release this story about what he knew

614
00:33:34,810 --> 00:33:33,320
about UFOs and the story was that that's

615
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:34,820
exactly what he wanted to do he wanted

616
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,210
to tell the world now he never a chance

617
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:40,880
to do that because he died in the early

618
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:45,170
hours of May 22nd 1949 now you know the

619
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:49,310
day before the 21st his brother found

620
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:51,950
the hospital and said well I'm coming

621
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:54,070
tomorrow and I'm gonna take him home and

622
00:33:59,530 --> 00:33:57,110
his brother just really didn't care

623
00:34:02,020 --> 00:33:59,540
whether or not the you know the the

624
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:02,030
doctors there liked it or not and he's

625
00:34:05,380 --> 00:34:03,350
put the Henry said you know I'm bringing

626
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:05,390
him home and you could like it or not

627
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:07,130
like it but that's what's gonna happen

628
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:11,500
and if Forrestal was if somebody was

629
00:34:16,690 --> 00:34:13,970
worried about Forrestal spilling the

630
00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:16,700
beans and if somebody wanted to get rid

631
00:34:21,490 --> 00:34:18,470
of him and his brother was gonna come in

632
00:34:22,330 --> 00:34:21,500
on the 22nd and it found the hospital on

633
00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:22,340
the 21st

634
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:24,350
well that really only gave the night of

635
00:34:29,110 --> 00:34:26,690
the 21st or the early hours of the 22nd

636
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,120
to get rid of him which is exactly what

637
00:34:34,030 --> 00:34:31,520
happened he died in the early hours of

638
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:34,040
May 22nd and interestingly enough it

639
00:34:38,860 --> 00:34:36,950
occurred when the guy he was God who

640
00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:38,870
actually wasn't the regular guard who

641
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:40,580
had offered the show fringy up to is

642
00:34:46,510 --> 00:34:43,520
another one said he had to leave the

643
00:34:49,180 --> 00:34:46,520
room always called out but the upshot

644
00:34:51,370 --> 00:34:49,190
was that Forrestal was left alone and

645
00:34:54,180 --> 00:34:51,380
then when the guard got back he wasn't

646
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:54,190
there and there was an open window and

647
00:34:59,620 --> 00:34:56,810
the guard looked out and there he was

648
00:35:00,880 --> 00:34:59,630
lying on an Alfa hanging roof 13 floors

649
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:00,890
down it was actually the roof of the

650
00:35:05,650 --> 00:35:03,920
third floor which stuck out and of

651
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:05,660
course before 13 floors you know you

652
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:07,730
know none of us are so provide you know

653
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:09,850
you're just not going to survive now

654
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:12,320
there were a lot of weird aspects

655
00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:14,030
surrounding the death itself the

656
00:35:18,490 --> 00:35:16,700
official line is that he took the cord

657
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:18,500
from his dressing gown and put one end

658
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:20,750
around his neck tied the other end

659
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:24,560
around the radiator and then climbed out

660
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,210
of the window and lowered him

661
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:28,400
down but if you think about that you

662
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:31,010
know you say double not one ender and

663
00:35:34,839 --> 00:35:32,720
radiator double knock the other end

664
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:34,849
around your neck and then there's still

665
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:36,380
going to be enough cord for you to climb

666
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:38,570
right out of the window your entire body

667
00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:41,210
and lower yourself down on the other

668
00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:44,180
side yeah why don't like he was you know

669
00:35:49,210 --> 00:35:46,220
in a 60 inch waist or restricting like

670
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:49,220
that so that kind of sounds strange you

671
00:35:56,980 --> 00:35:51,050
know but he could do all that with just

672
00:35:59,950 --> 00:35:56,990
a regular waist cord and the the story

673
00:36:02,560 --> 00:35:59,960
is that he essentially tried to hang

674
00:36:05,460 --> 00:36:02,570
himself at the window but the weight of

675
00:36:07,870 --> 00:36:05,470
his body and just been tied by a cord

676
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:07,880
split the cord and he just fell to his

677
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:10,670
death but there are actually signs

678
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:12,740
outside the window of scratch marks

679
00:36:17,290 --> 00:36:14,660
where it looked like he'd been fighting

680
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:17,300
to get back in as if possibly you know

681
00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:18,710
somebody had forced him out of the

682
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:22,220
window and died days brother Henry

683
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:24,560
believed that the forest had been

684
00:36:29,890 --> 00:36:27,320
outright murdered and I wish you pointed

685
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:29,900
out there actually is this official CIA

686
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:31,970
document for the early 50s which is

687
00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:33,410
which is officially being released

688
00:36:38,349 --> 00:36:35,080
through the favor Information Act and

689
00:36:40,690 --> 00:36:38,359
it's called a study of assassination and

690
00:36:43,930 --> 00:36:40,700
he's essentially a guideline documents

691
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:43,940
for CI personnel on how to make a murder

692
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:46,250
look like a suicide or an accident and

693
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:47,930
top of the list

694
00:36:54,190 --> 00:36:51,530
in making it work well is to throw

695
00:36:57,550 --> 00:36:54,200
somebody out of a high window onto a

696
00:36:59,170 --> 00:36:57,560
concrete floor and so that's actually

697
00:37:02,410 --> 00:36:59,180
you know a recommendation in the

698
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:02,420
documents and it's exactly how Forrestal

699
00:37:10,450 --> 00:37:08,450
died right right now a lot of this there

700
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,460
is this like mostly like fleeting

701
00:37:15,130 --> 00:37:12,560
evidence sort of like the UFOs

702
00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:15,140
themselves I mean is there any case out

703
00:37:20,050 --> 00:37:17,540
there that you looked into that you

704
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:20,060
could say wow you know that is really

705
00:37:28,060 --> 00:37:23,420
really solid can you can you go over

706
00:37:30,099 --> 00:37:28,070
that anything that you think forrestal's

707
00:37:32,109 --> 00:37:30,109
death is suspicious under any

708
00:37:34,359 --> 00:37:32,119
circumstances without you know bringing

709
00:37:36,940 --> 00:37:34,369
UFOs into the mix but as I said there

710
00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:36,950
are strands but you're right there

711
00:37:41,410 --> 00:37:38,990
strands and we need to put those strands

712
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:41,420
together to a greater degree that we

713
00:37:46,089 --> 00:37:43,730
have already if we can at least speaking

714
00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:46,099
you knows that long ago and when people

715
00:37:49,690 --> 00:37:47,900
got onto the UFO angle it was it was

716
00:37:53,770 --> 00:37:49,700
years later but certainly there are

717
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:53,780
other ones that for me at least point

718
00:37:57,790 --> 00:37:55,730
right in the direction of the UFO

719
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:57,800
phenomenon one of them I talked about in

720
00:38:04,750 --> 00:38:01,520
the book was the 1959 death of Morris K

721
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:04,760
Jessup a UFO researcher who got involved

722
00:38:11,230 --> 00:38:07,040
in all sorts of stuff like ancient

723
00:38:13,839 --> 00:38:11,240
astronauts UFOs in the 40s and 50s the

724
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:13,849
Philadelphia Experiment and then wound

725
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:16,700
up dead and Forrest excuse me

726
00:38:22,660 --> 00:38:19,490
Jessup was a guy who came for a Michigan

727
00:38:26,319 --> 00:38:22,670
and he developed an interest in the UFO

728
00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:26,329
subjects in the early 50s and bear in

729
00:38:30,579 --> 00:38:28,190
mind how long ago this was he was sort

730
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:30,589
of really like a pioneer in the whole

731
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:32,930
field of ancient astronauts you know

732
00:38:38,109 --> 00:38:35,290
we're talking 20 years almost before

733
00:38:40,569 --> 00:38:38,119
Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods

734
00:38:42,339 --> 00:38:40,579
book came out and sort of four decades

735
00:38:46,270 --> 00:38:42,349
before zecharia sitchin was on the scene

736
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:46,280
and Jessup traveled extensively to South

737
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:49,490
America and Mexico and came to believe

738
00:38:54,099 --> 00:38:52,010
that the ancient structures there like

739
00:38:56,849 --> 00:38:54,109
the the massive South American pyramids

740
00:38:59,620 --> 00:38:56,859
not too dissimilar to the Egyptian ones

741
00:39:01,089 --> 00:38:59,630
were built by he concluded they could

742
00:39:03,550 --> 00:39:01,099
only have been built by something like

743
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:03,560
anti-gravity levitation and he came to

744
00:39:09,809 --> 00:39:06,890
the same conclusion for places like the

745
00:39:13,089 --> 00:39:09,819
pyramids in Egypt and Stonehenge and

746
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:13,099
know whether or not that's true that was

747
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,930
the theory he was sort of promoting in

748
00:39:19,630 --> 00:39:17,359
the early 50s that sort of levitation

749
00:39:22,319 --> 00:39:19,640
type technology to lift these massive

750
00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:22,329
stones and he was also heavily

751
00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:25,160
researching UFOs they said in the foot

752
00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:28,040
late 40s and 50s he wrote a number of

753
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:29,990
books in the 50s the most famous one

754
00:39:37,839 --> 00:39:34,480
being the case for the UFO now this was

755
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:37,849
basically he's most well known and sort

756
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:40,010
of fleshed out book and it's the one

757
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:42,710
he's probably known for most of all but

758
00:39:46,540 --> 00:39:44,450
the book itself has a weird history

759
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:46,550
because not so long after it was

760
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:47,710
published

761
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:51,490
a copy was mailed anonymously so a

762
00:39:56,910 --> 00:39:54,640
division of the US Navy in Washington DC

763
00:39:59,280 --> 00:39:56,920
I was specifically sent to a division

764
00:40:01,440 --> 00:39:59,290
that was like a special weapons division

765
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:01,450
that you know was involved in developing

766
00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:03,609
new futuristic weapon systems and so on

767
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:07,480
and the copy that was mailed anonymously

768
00:40:12,210 --> 00:40:10,390
to the Navy contained all these weird

769
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:12,220
scribblings and notes where somebody

770
00:40:15,390 --> 00:40:13,930
that you bought the book and on each

771
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:15,400
page they'd add you all there are little

772
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:19,119
words in pen and all these notes related

773
00:40:25,380 --> 00:40:22,720
to two things one the issue of ancient

774
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,390
technology being used to move these

775
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:27,760
massive stones like anti-gravity and the

776
00:40:35,359 --> 00:40:32,280
other thing was I supposed 1943

777
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:35,369
experiment to try and make a u.s. Navy

778
00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:38,410
warship invisible and this has become

779
00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:39,910
known as the Philadelphia Experiment

780
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:42,070
this sort of controversial but famous

781
00:40:50,460 --> 00:40:46,330
story that in 43 a ship the USS Eldridge

782
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:50,470
was made invisible as in literally

783
00:40:55,020 --> 00:40:53,440
invisible but had sort of terrible side

784
00:40:57,060 --> 00:40:55,030
effects on the crew and the project was

785
00:40:59,760 --> 00:40:57,070
shut down now whether or not that's true

786
00:41:02,130 --> 00:40:59,770
as well he's kind of beside the point

787
00:41:04,430 --> 00:41:02,140
but the intriguing thing is that when

788
00:41:06,690 --> 00:41:04,440
this copy of the book was mailed to this

789
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:06,700
special weapons division in the Navy

790
00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:09,970
they actually found Jessup op phonies

791
00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:11,950
numbers following him up and invited him

792
00:41:18,329 --> 00:41:15,190
out to DC for essentially like a

793
00:41:20,339 --> 00:41:18,339
day-long series of questions on his book

794
00:41:22,349 --> 00:41:20,349
and his theories and on the Philadelphia

795
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:22,359
Experiment yes it was a little bit

796
00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:25,810
concerned you know I want on the one

797
00:41:30,990 --> 00:41:28,270
hand he was excited that somebody in the

798
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:31,000
Navy the government was interested in

799
00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:33,490
his book on the other hand he was big

800
00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:34,750
worried was this gonna be like a good

801
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:36,820
cop bad cop scenario or any good out

802
00:41:40,620 --> 00:41:38,650
there who think that you turned out to

803
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:40,630
be a good cop/good cop scenario I was

804
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:43,690
just a very relaxed interview but that

805
00:41:49,230 --> 00:41:46,990
may have been deliberate the the idea

806
00:41:51,359 --> 00:41:49,240
was that the universe of these questions

807
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:51,369
all about his book and this research

808
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:53,740
into antigravity but they were clearly

809
00:41:59,579 --> 00:41:57,130
pushing to find out who this person

810
00:42:00,990 --> 00:41:59,589
might have been who was talking about

811
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:01,000
the Philadelphia Experiment with

812
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,609
hindsight

813
00:42:05,319 --> 00:42:03,200
kind of sounds like there were concerns

814
00:42:08,109 --> 00:42:05,329
that somebody may have compromised a

815
00:42:10,509 --> 00:42:08,119
classified project and they went to

816
00:42:11,019 --> 00:42:10,519
Jessup to figure out if he knew who it

817
00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:11,029
was

818
00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:12,920
well Jess supports a must immediately

819
00:42:19,329 --> 00:42:17,089
should so realize that the writing the

820
00:42:22,979 --> 00:42:19,339
handwriting of his book originated with

821
00:42:26,529 --> 00:42:22,989
a guy named Carlos Allende who had been

822
00:42:28,660 --> 00:42:26,539
in communication with Jess Apache for a

823
00:42:30,670 --> 00:42:28,670
couple years he instantly recognized the

824
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:30,680
write and said well yes this guy lending

825
00:42:36,910 --> 00:42:33,710
so that set aside the Navy on that score

826
00:42:38,259 --> 00:42:36,920
and Jessup went they flew him back home

827
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:38,269
that's another thing that covered all

828
00:42:44,319 --> 00:42:41,930
his expenses his hotel his food flight

829
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:44,329
everything so you know it was taken very

830
00:42:48,489 --> 00:42:46,190
seriously the stuff he put in his book

831
00:42:51,999 --> 00:42:48,499
now after he got back home a lot of

832
00:42:53,229 --> 00:42:52,009
weird stuff began to happen each sort of

833
00:42:54,970 --> 00:42:53,239
wake up in the middle of the night

834
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:54,980
because the phone was ringing you know

835
00:42:58,809 --> 00:42:57,440
just jolt you away from a dead sleep he

836
00:43:00,640 --> 00:42:58,819
grace to get the farm because he thought

837
00:43:01,870 --> 00:43:00,650
it was bad news I mean if you get a call

838
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:01,880
at like 4:00 in the morning that's

839
00:43:05,950 --> 00:43:04,640
everybody's first thought you know don't

840
00:43:08,130 --> 00:43:05,960
know where you are the world it's like

841
00:43:10,749 --> 00:43:08,140
oh god you know who's that calling and

842
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:10,759
it seems like this has done so

843
00:43:14,829 --> 00:43:13,130
essentially destabilize his link which

844
00:43:17,140 --> 00:43:14,839
is exactly what happened these calls

845
00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:17,150
would go on night after night and you

846
00:43:22,690 --> 00:43:19,400
know he's nervous became fried then he

847
00:43:23,979 --> 00:43:22,700
started getting weird hang-up calls and

848
00:43:27,339 --> 00:43:23,989
other times when he picked the phone up

849
00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:27,349
and through these strange electronic

850
00:43:34,089 --> 00:43:30,430
screeches and noises and sounds like

851
00:43:35,650 --> 00:43:34,099
what sounded like a fast very rapid

852
00:43:37,870 --> 00:43:35,660
language but a language he couldn't

853
00:43:39,870 --> 00:43:37,880
understand and he became very nervous by

854
00:43:41,979 --> 00:43:39,880
this there anything else you have male

855
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:41,989
interference where his mail would arrive

856
00:43:47,529 --> 00:43:44,450
opened and resealed but done in a way

857
00:43:49,509 --> 00:43:47,539
where somebody clearly wanted to make it

858
00:43:51,519 --> 00:43:49,519
obvious to him that if the mail had been

859
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:51,529
opened you know there's no attempt to

860
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:52,880
hide it in fact it was the exact

861
00:43:58,479 --> 00:43:55,249
opposite as if somebody wanted to send a

862
00:44:00,400 --> 00:43:58,489
message to him and the message kind of

863
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:00,410
got him in a similar state to forest or

864
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:04,210
where he became very paranoid anxious

865
00:44:08,190 --> 00:44:06,490
and felt people watching him bless right

866
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:08,200
sensor and with hindsight they probably

867
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:12,790
were now he was found dead in a Florida

868
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:15,910
Park in 1959 sitting in his car with the

869
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:18,490
engine running with a hose pipe down

870
00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:19,690
from the exhaust through the for a

871
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:21,790
window it looked like a classic case of

872
00:44:27,810 --> 00:44:23,950
you know suicide from carbon monoxide

873
00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:27,820
poisoning but weirdly parallel in the

874
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:30,790
situation with Forrestal as I said

875
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:33,280
Forrester was killed or died or jump to

876
00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:34,510
have you want to look at it the night

877
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:36,040
before his brother was going to take him

878
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:36,490
home

879
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:38,410
possibly the night before he may have

880
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:39,970
planned to go publicly worrying about

881
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:43,450
UFOs well the night before Jessup's

882
00:44:47,970 --> 00:44:45,730
death he found a friend of his Manson

883
00:44:50,970 --> 00:44:47,980
Valentine who was also a researcher of

884
00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:50,980
UFOs and ancient mysteries and said he

885
00:44:56,370 --> 00:44:54,580
told Valentine basically that he'd

886
00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:56,380
uncovered something amazing and he

887
00:45:00,839 --> 00:44:57,880
wanted to meet me Valentine the very

888
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:00,849
next day the peloton was intrigued and

889
00:45:05,849 --> 00:45:03,510
said yeah you know let's get together

890
00:45:07,710 --> 00:45:05,859
Jordana well that didn't happen because

891
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:07,720
I said Forrester was found dead in this

892
00:45:13,770 --> 00:45:10,990
particular Park and he looked like a

893
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:13,780
suicide but there were some very odd

894
00:45:18,420 --> 00:45:16,210
aspects to it for example he was never

895
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:18,430
thought opposite which you know is

896
00:45:24,570 --> 00:45:21,490
bizarre because just because it looked

897
00:45:26,579 --> 00:45:24,580
like a suicide didn't mean it was the

898
00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:26,589
easiest way during an autopsy to check

899
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:28,180
to check your person deep died from

900
00:45:33,150 --> 00:45:30,130
carbon monoxide poisoning obviously to

901
00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:33,160
check the blood content for carbon

902
00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:34,990
monoxide you know Farrah breathing when

903
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:37,180
they died they would have obviously had

904
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:39,310
it in their lungs you know he was dead

905
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:43,270
before he was put in the car then there

906
00:45:46,349 --> 00:45:44,890
wouldn't be any carbon monoxide in his

907
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:46,359
lungs because he wouldn't have breathed

908
00:45:50,370 --> 00:45:48,400
any in because he was dead but nobody

909
00:45:52,170 --> 00:45:50,380
thought to check that since there are

910
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:52,180
other things as well for example the

911
00:45:55,380 --> 00:45:53,050
window

912
00:45:58,099 --> 00:45:55,390
aside from where the pipe went in were

913
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,109
stuffed with wet rags and dentals and

914
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:00,880
mrs. Joseph his wife confirmed they

915
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:03,190
weren't the family's towels now that

916
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:05,230
might sound odd but you know nobody

917
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:07,450
would can really say of course one what

918
00:46:10,829 --> 00:46:09,040
goes through anybody's mind when they

919
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:10,839
decide to kill themselves but it would

920
00:46:14,820 --> 00:46:12,490
seem odd that he would deliberately go

921
00:46:16,170 --> 00:46:14,830
out just to buy new towels you know why

922
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:16,180
not just take a few from the house with

923
00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:17,050
him

924
00:46:20,670 --> 00:46:18,220
the other thing was that the towels were

925
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:20,680
soaking wet somebody had wet them

926
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:22,420
essentially to you know prevent any

927
00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:25,210
arrogance or anything at all but the

928
00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:28,750
water was clear and fresh water there

929
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:30,760
there was a lake next to where he was

930
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:32,710
found dead but it was the water was lake

931
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:35,170
water and it wasn't the water on the

932
00:46:40,170 --> 00:46:38,170
towels but there was no container in the

933
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:40,180
car or anywhere near the car to suggest

934
00:46:43,650 --> 00:46:41,650
that he could have brought the water

935
00:46:46,260 --> 00:46:43,660
with him and then soaked them then

936
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:46,270
and oddly nobody thought anything

937
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:51,490
strange about that that if I can Nick I

938
00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:53,680
got an email earlier and the guy is now

939
00:47:00,920 --> 00:46:57,390
on the message board and he grew up near

940
00:47:04,350 --> 00:47:00,930
Matheson hammock park and said said that

941
00:47:07,740 --> 00:47:04,360
the in the park itself there were there

942
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:07,750
was showers and fountains that someone

943
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:09,250
could have gotten fresh water from I

944
00:47:15,390 --> 00:47:12,850
don't know oh yeah the idea that fresh

945
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:15,400
water was used you know he's in dispute

946
00:47:18,990 --> 00:47:17,530
I mean somebody could have got it I mean

947
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:19,000
that's actually a very good point that

948
00:47:25,290 --> 00:47:22,690
you know the person makes what I find

949
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:25,300
very suspicious is the fact that no

950
00:47:30,590 --> 00:47:27,730
container of any sort was found by the

951
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:30,600
car in the car in the trunk anywhere and

952
00:47:37,740 --> 00:47:34,770
so in other words whoever sold Patel's

953
00:47:39,690 --> 00:47:37,750
even if he was Jess if somebody removed

954
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:39,700
you know the container afterwards which

955
00:47:45,810 --> 00:47:43,090
suggests it wasn't Jessup so for that

956
00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:45,820
reason I you know I'm not a cop but I

957
00:47:50,730 --> 00:47:48,190
find it baffling that nobody gave any

958
00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:50,740
thought to or where did the water come

959
00:47:55,470 --> 00:47:53,140
from and even he came from the park

960
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:55,480
where's the container and when you

961
00:48:01,050 --> 00:47:58,330
couple that with the fact lien of new

962
00:48:02,580 --> 00:48:01,060
towels and he was going to file months

963
00:48:04,860 --> 00:48:02,590
he was going to meet with Valentine to

964
00:48:08,940 --> 00:48:04,870
tell him this amazing discovery

965
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:08,950
and you know you buy the towels the

966
00:48:11,790 --> 00:48:11,200
water the discovery you pull all those

967
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:11,800
together

968
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:15,090
and then on top of that no autopsy then

969
00:48:21,450 --> 00:48:18,510
to me that is a really weird situation

970
00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:21,460
that's for me at least points to like a

971
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:25,180
staged suicide mm-hmm very well can be

972
00:48:29,859 --> 00:48:28,450
now starting out in your book was the

973
00:48:31,569 --> 00:48:29,869
Mauri Island incident

974
00:48:33,549 --> 00:48:31,579
and to me that's one of the fascinating

975
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:33,559
ones I mean it was a very very early

976
00:48:37,839 --> 00:48:36,890
case and the doughnut-shaped crafts one

977
00:48:40,420 --> 00:48:37,849
of them gets in trouble

978
00:48:44,109 --> 00:48:40,430
it drops something down on the boat

979
00:48:47,799 --> 00:48:44,119
kills the dog injures the boy and the

980
00:48:49,390 --> 00:48:47,809
the there was some recovery and Kenneth

981
00:48:51,249 --> 00:48:49,400
Arnold is actually involved in this a

982
00:48:53,650 --> 00:48:51,259
lot of people don't know that Kenneth

983
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:53,660
Arnold who supposedly had the first

984
00:48:58,630 --> 00:48:56,930
sighting pardon me but in that case in

985
00:49:00,430 --> 00:48:58,640
particular one of the things I wanted to

986
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:00,440
talk about and we can do a little

987
00:49:04,989 --> 00:49:02,930
nutshell of it but lieutenant Brown and

988
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:04,999
captain Davidson you know crashed with

989
00:49:09,099 --> 00:49:07,130
the evidence in the plane and the the

990
00:49:12,609 --> 00:49:09,109
question I was going to ask you yes it

991
00:49:14,109 --> 00:49:12,619
is a mysterious death and you know very

992
00:49:18,130 --> 00:49:14,119
strange how that whole thing there was a

993
00:49:20,140 --> 00:49:18,140
man in black and all that but in your

994
00:49:22,779 --> 00:49:20,150
opinion why would the government kill

995
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:22,789
their own if this was if this is a

996
00:49:29,890 --> 00:49:27,200
conspirator situation well I mean there

997
00:49:31,630 --> 00:49:29,900
are a number of theories I mean you made

998
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:31,640
a good summary of the case a you know so

999
00:49:36,009 --> 00:49:34,160
I don't need to go over that but yeah

1000
00:49:38,529 --> 00:49:36,019
what basically happened was when this

1001
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:38,539
strange wreckage was found it's handed

1002
00:49:42,009 --> 00:49:40,609
over to a guy named Fred Chrisman who

1003
00:49:46,529 --> 00:49:42,019
turned up later in the Kennedy

1004
00:49:49,569 --> 00:49:46,539
assassination of all things and he then

1005
00:49:51,459 --> 00:49:49,579
from-from Chrisman the media got hold of

1006
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:51,469
the story then the military got hold of

1007
00:49:55,989 --> 00:49:53,089
it and they flew these two guys from

1008
00:49:57,729 --> 00:49:55,999
army intelligence out to Maury Island to

1009
00:49:59,859 --> 00:49:57,739
pick up this strange wreckage and

1010
00:50:01,359 --> 00:49:59,869
transfer it back to Wright Field today

1011
00:50:04,269 --> 00:50:01,369
called wright-patterson Air Force Base

1012
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:04,279
in Dayton Ohio and they were first

1013
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:06,049
lieutenant Frank Mercer Braun and

1014
00:50:10,509 --> 00:50:08,630
Captain William Lee Davidson well they

1015
00:50:12,849 --> 00:50:10,519
picked up a bunch of this wreckage and I

1016
00:50:14,319 --> 00:50:12,859
actually reproduce a rare photograph of

1017
00:50:15,789 --> 00:50:14,329
a piece of the wreckage in the book

1018
00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:15,799
which is surfaced through the Freedom of

1019
00:50:20,859 --> 00:50:17,630
Information Act the document I should

1020
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:20,869
say surfaced from the wreckage but so

1021
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:22,249
basically what happened was that

1022
00:50:28,359 --> 00:50:25,249
Davidson and Braun took to the skies to

1023
00:50:29,549 --> 00:50:28,369
fly to right field with this wreckage a

1024
00:50:32,170 --> 00:50:29,559
bit carefully

1025
00:50:34,450 --> 00:50:32,180
story like a boxer loaded aboard the

1026
00:50:39,579 --> 00:50:34,460
plane well then got long into the sky

1027
00:50:41,980 --> 00:50:39,589
when the plane caught fire and crashed

1028
00:50:44,890 --> 00:50:41,990
to the ground they were killed

1029
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:44,900
the recce was reportedly never found by

1030
00:50:51,070 --> 00:50:47,570
the emergency crews were on the scene

1031
00:50:53,740 --> 00:50:51,080
very quickly even though a lot of sort

1032
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:53,750
of personal details and items of the

1033
00:50:57,970 --> 00:50:56,720
crew that were killed was found you know

1034
00:51:00,310 --> 00:50:57,980
you would think like a large chest

1035
00:51:01,870 --> 00:51:00,320
containing this material might well

1036
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:01,880
stand out but you know it apparently

1037
00:51:10,050 --> 00:51:07,040
didn't but a lot of weird stories about

1038
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:10,060
the the crash itself or the explosion

1039
00:51:15,370 --> 00:51:13,610
there was one theory that the aircraft

1040
00:51:17,410 --> 00:51:15,380
itself would actually be sabotage that

1041
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:17,420
was you know a bomb on board that sort

1042
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:19,760
of blew it up from the inside out there

1043
00:51:24,310 --> 00:51:21,710
was not a very weird story that Kenneth

1044
00:51:27,090 --> 00:51:24,320
Arnold himself talked about he said

1045
00:51:30,310 --> 00:51:27,100
Arnold himself that the guy who had the

1046
00:51:32,890 --> 00:51:30,320
arguably the most famous and first UFO

1047
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:32,900
encounter of the modern era on June 24

1048
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:37,010
1947 Arnold said he'd heard that the the

1049
00:51:42,420 --> 00:51:39,110
b-29 aircraft that they were flying it

1050
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:42,430
was blasted out of the sky by a cannon

1051
00:51:47,110 --> 00:51:45,050
fired by detachments of the military

1052
00:51:48,820 --> 00:51:47,120
like another detachment and an Arnold

1053
00:51:50,980 --> 00:51:48,830
actually came to believe that there were

1054
00:51:54,250 --> 00:51:50,990
like warring factions within the

1055
00:51:55,630 --> 00:51:54,260
military some that were wanted even at

1056
00:51:57,850 --> 00:51:55,640
this early stage that wanted the whole

1057
00:51:59,230 --> 00:51:57,860
thing keeping under wraps and others

1058
00:52:02,200 --> 00:51:59,240
wanted to get it out to the general

1059
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:02,210
public and Arnold actually talks about

1060
00:52:06,010 --> 00:52:04,160
the possibility that you know there were

1061
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:06,020
these factions that had differing

1062
00:52:12,460 --> 00:52:11,210
agendas in relation to you know what

1063
00:52:14,350 --> 00:52:12,470
should be done with this material that's

1064
00:52:16,990 --> 00:52:14,360
was one of the theories that somebody

1065
00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:17,000
decided this isn't gonna reach right

1066
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:19,460
field otherwise you know if the story

1067
00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:21,170
comes tumbling out we're in big trouble

1068
00:52:26,650 --> 00:52:23,630
let's just you know finish you right now

1069
00:52:28,810 --> 00:52:26,660
and of course this talk of the idea that

1070
00:52:31,090 --> 00:52:28,820
what if there been a UFO in the area and

1071
00:52:33,370 --> 00:52:31,100
it was a UFO that essentially blasted

1072
00:52:36,270 --> 00:52:33,380
the aircraft out of the sky to prevent

1073
00:52:37,980 --> 00:52:36,280
the military getting its hands on and

1074
00:52:40,330 --> 00:52:37,990
understanding and possibly even

1075
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:40,340
replicating the wreckage

1076
00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:42,410
so you have multiple different theories

1077
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:45,430
but it all comes down to one thing but

1078
00:52:51,070 --> 00:52:48,170
but two guys

1079
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:51,080
and Davidson both died when they were

1080
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:54,410
flying reported UFO wreckage to a

1081
00:53:00,130 --> 00:52:57,050
military base for inspection and that on

1082
00:53:03,310 --> 00:53:00,140
alone you know he's a I think a matter

1083
00:53:05,830 --> 00:53:03,320
for for debate at the very least right

1084
00:53:08,770 --> 00:53:05,840
Nick you know we only have like three

1085
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:08,780
minutes at this point so you know what

1086
00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:10,610
and I asked you earlier if you would be

1087
00:53:14,350 --> 00:53:12,380
willing to do an extended version so

1088
00:53:16,690 --> 00:53:14,360
we'll we'll continue on after the live

1089
00:53:20,860 --> 00:53:16,700
show but up on the message board is a

1090
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:20,870
question and do you think that you want

1091
00:53:25,570 --> 00:53:23,810
to comment any on the John Mac case when

1092
00:53:27,130 --> 00:53:25,580
he was run over in England a lot of

1093
00:53:32,470 --> 00:53:27,140
people say that that was just a plane

1094
00:53:33,970 --> 00:53:32,480
accident but I don't have max death in

1095
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:33,980
the book because actually person you

1096
00:53:38,980 --> 00:53:35,690
don't think it was an accident I mean

1097
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:38,990
and I'll explain to you why one of the

1098
00:53:41,890 --> 00:53:40,310
things I point out in the book is you

1099
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:41,900
know over the years I've been literally

1100
00:53:47,610 --> 00:53:44,510
thousands and thousands of people in the

1101
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:47,620
UFO field researchers authors

1102
00:53:56,670 --> 00:53:51,710
investigators radio hosts you know TV

1103
00:53:59,500 --> 00:53:56,680
personalities all across the board and

1104
00:54:01,330 --> 00:53:59,510
Martin you know most of them had not

1105
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:01,340
died under unusual circumstances you

1106
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:04,490
know just lived out their lives and died

1107
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:06,410
of old age or so or just a keg-nog

1108
00:54:09,730 --> 00:54:08,210
genuine car accidents or whatever you

1109
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:09,740
know we're all human there's nothing

1110
00:54:14,260 --> 00:54:12,410
special about a green ufology we're all

1111
00:54:16,270 --> 00:54:14,270
the same and accidents happen and

1112
00:54:18,580 --> 00:54:16,280
sometimes somebody has a heart attack

1113
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:18,590
under their you know 25 or something in

1114
00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:20,570
the same way sometimes you'll see like a

1115
00:54:24,910 --> 00:54:22,790
sports play and I drop dead on the

1116
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:24,920
football field at 25 or whatever it does

1117
00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:27,770
happen now this comes back to Mack and

1118
00:54:33,250 --> 00:54:30,320
John Mack when he died he was in London

1119
00:54:35,470 --> 00:54:33,260
England where I'm originally from on a

1120
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:35,480
Saturday night and he was crossing the

1121
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:39,410
road in a regular cross in place and you

1122
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:41,210
know I've lived in the US for 13 years

1123
00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:44,570
when I first came over my instinct was

1124
00:54:50,140 --> 00:54:46,880
to look when I'm crossing the road to

1125
00:54:51,850 --> 00:54:50,150
looki 1 you know to my right for

1126
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:51,860
oncoming traffic it's on crossing the

1127
00:54:57,460 --> 00:54:53,300
road because in England we drive on the

1128
00:54:59,770 --> 00:54:57,470
left you know and vice versa but but

1129
00:55:01,390 --> 00:54:59,780
even my instinct was that I would swing

1130
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:01,400
you know the wrong direction when

1131
00:55:05,980 --> 00:55:03,530
and I actually a couple of times you

1132
00:55:08,290 --> 00:55:05,990
know went across the road when I just

1133
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:08,300
realized it last second I was like wow

1134
00:55:12,730 --> 00:55:11,090
you know I I just missed a car because I

1135
00:55:16,300 --> 00:55:12,740
was looking in the wrong direction for

1136
00:55:17,230 --> 00:55:16,310
the oncoming traffic and my suspicion is

1137
00:55:19,870 --> 00:55:17,240
that when Mack

1138
00:55:23,620 --> 00:55:19,880
crossed a London Road busy on a Saturday

1139
00:55:26,740 --> 00:55:23,630
night and that he's automatically his

1140
00:55:28,210 --> 00:55:26,750
instinct was to look to his left for the

1141
00:55:30,070 --> 00:55:28,220
traffic coming on the right-hand side of

1142
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:30,080
the road forgetting that he said in

1143
00:55:33,730 --> 00:55:31,820
English right on the left so he should

1144
00:55:35,590 --> 00:55:33,740
have lost for the right and he just

1145
00:55:36,910 --> 00:55:35,600
strolled out and was hit by a car and he

1146
00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:36,920
was just hit by a member of the general

1147
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:39,110
public who was drunk he was over the

1148
00:55:44,170 --> 00:55:42,290
limit for driving so and there was you

1149
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:44,180
know there wasn't like a staged event in

1150
00:55:47,290 --> 00:55:45,410
the middle of nowhere it was a Saturday

1151
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:47,300
night on a busy London Road there were

1152
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:49,970
numerous people around at the time who

1153
00:55:54,130 --> 00:55:52,430
tried to give help it wasn't like you

1154
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:54,140
know you need some dart back straight

1155
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:56,450
and he was suddenly found I was later

1156
00:56:00,520 --> 00:55:58,480
you know it's kind of like you imagine

1157
00:56:02,380 --> 00:56:00,530
he's happy to happen on like Times

1158
00:56:06,670 --> 00:56:02,390
Square on a Saturday night that's what

1159
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:06,680
it was like and the guy the guy was as I

1160
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:08,330
said was found to be over the limit so

1161
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:10,250
yeah it's one of those that people might

1162
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:13,250
want to debate but I think the the

1163
00:56:17,830 --> 00:56:15,200
evidence does point towards just a

1164
00:56:19,870 --> 00:56:17,840
tragic accident but because he was a key

1165
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:19,880
player in ufology there's always this

1166
00:56:25,330 --> 00:56:22,790
tendency to think it was mysterious when

1167
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:25,340
you know a lot of them art you know this

1168
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:26,570
is one of the awkward things of this

1169
00:56:31,300 --> 00:56:28,160
subject has been very careful which one

1170
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:31,310
you assume were mysterious and which

1171
00:56:35,470 --> 00:56:33,680
ones were just due to the fact that you

1172
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:35,480
know we're all human right and that

1173
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:37,250
that's it for a live show Nick so just

1174
00:57:00,690 --> 00:56:56,880
so this is our extended version right

1175
00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:00,700
here now with Nick Redfern and Nick up

1176
00:57:05,130 --> 00:57:02,470
on the message board we had a person

1177
00:57:08,250 --> 00:57:05,140
asking a question about the Todd sees

1178
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:08,260
case in Brazil where the gentleman was

1179
00:57:15,090 --> 00:57:11,530
zapped by a beam from the UFO supposedly

1180
00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:15,100
in in died a horrible death a really

1181
00:57:20,820 --> 00:57:17,980
weird story but one of the weirdest

1182
00:57:23,130 --> 00:57:20,830
proud they're and it's it's kind of

1183
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:23,140
notable because actually predates the

1184
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,090
modern era of ufology by one year 47 was

1185
00:57:34,290 --> 00:57:30,400
the year of Roswell can athon or Maury

1186
00:57:38,190 --> 00:57:34,300
island but back in 1946 specifically

1187
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:38,200
March 1946 there was a very bizarre

1188
00:57:43,110 --> 00:57:39,970
incident which returned in Brazilian

1189
00:57:44,790 --> 00:57:43,120
village called Iraq aguma ABBA I think

1190
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:44,800
that's about how you say it is my

1191
00:57:52,370 --> 00:57:47,290
Brazilians not great but but that's

1192
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:52,380
close enough I think and it involved a

1193
00:57:59,430 --> 00:57:55,810
farmer named qua Presto's Phil Howe and

1194
00:58:01,800 --> 00:57:59,440
he was 44 years old at the time and it

1195
00:58:05,130 --> 00:58:01,810
was a Saturday night and he was walking

1196
00:58:09,390 --> 00:58:05,140
home after doing a day fishing in the

1197
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,400
local River DTS a river and he had a

1198
00:58:14,700 --> 00:58:11,440
good day now just hanging out chilling

1199
00:58:16,830 --> 00:58:14,710
out walking home this was late at night

1200
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:16,840
and he had that kind of feeling that we

1201
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:18,370
all have at times that somebody's

1202
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:20,260
watching you you know if you sort of a

1203
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:22,690
line at the checkouts or whatever you

1204
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:23,890
suddenly feel that somebody's watching

1205
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:26,050
you turn round and somebody is looking

1206
00:58:32,220 --> 00:58:28,090
at you know from 40 feet away we all get

1207
00:58:34,350 --> 00:58:32,230
that now and again and Preston's he had

1208
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:34,360
that feeling all the way home he just

1209
00:58:37,890 --> 00:58:36,310
could not shake it off the idea that

1210
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:37,900
somebody was watching him from the

1211
00:58:44,430 --> 00:58:40,450
shadows so to speak well even when he

1212
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:44,440
got home and got in his house he still

1213
00:58:49,260 --> 00:58:46,630
could not shake that feeling out off so

1214
00:58:52,140 --> 00:58:49,270
he kind of was pacing around and looked

1215
00:58:54,980 --> 00:58:52,150
out the window and saw this large bright

1216
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,990
light hovering in the sky

1217
00:59:00,380 --> 00:58:56,880
what was we it was the fact that it was

1218
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:00,390
silence and he was hovering you know

1219
00:59:06,890 --> 00:59:03,510
nobody was flying anything that was good

1220
00:59:09,050 --> 00:59:06,900
fly silently at that time now could have

1221
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:09,060
been a helicopter helicopter flying but

1222
00:59:13,940 --> 00:59:11,040
they're they've always got that sort of

1223
00:59:15,020 --> 00:59:13,950
classic you know that rotor sound and

1224
00:59:18,260 --> 00:59:15,030
there was nothing at all

1225
00:59:21,260 --> 00:59:18,270
so he stared at it only to be suddenly

1226
00:59:24,140 --> 00:59:21,270
bathed in this bright burning light

1227
00:59:26,570 --> 00:59:24,150
which just essentially just hit him now

1228
00:59:29,630 --> 00:59:26,580
with hindsight looking back it almost

1229
00:59:31,460 --> 00:59:29,640
sounds like a microwave or something

1230
00:59:34,010 --> 00:59:31,470
like that I mean if you when you

1231
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:34,020
microwave food one of the reasons why

1232
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:37,170
the instruction to tell you let it stand

1233
00:59:40,190 --> 00:59:38,760
for a couple of weeks afterwards isn't

1234
00:59:42,590 --> 00:59:40,200
just because it's boil in heart is

1235
00:59:45,340 --> 00:59:42,600
because the microwaves actually continue

1236
00:59:47,330 --> 00:59:45,350
to cook from the inside out for a while

1237
00:59:49,930 --> 00:59:47,340
that's why they tell you to let it stand

1238
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:49,940
because it is literally still cooking

1239
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:52,530
and that sort of sounds a little bit

1240
00:59:57,530 --> 00:59:54,720
what light will happen to fill though is

1241
01:00:00,380 --> 00:59:57,540
that his body began to get hotter and

1242
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:00,390
hotter you know and he kind of felt like

1243
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:03,359
he was developing immediate sunstroke

1244
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:06,090
but he didn't stop there he skin began

1245
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:08,850
to blister and go red and not so

1246
01:00:14,780 --> 01:00:10,530
brightly ran screaming into the streets

1247
01:00:16,940 --> 01:00:14,790
and by the time locals in the village

1248
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:16,950
and friends had caught up with him his

1249
01:00:21,490 --> 01:00:18,690
scheme wasn't just started to blister

1250
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:21,500
but it was started to tail off and

1251
01:00:26,030 --> 01:00:24,330
somebody loaded him into a car and there

1252
01:00:28,730 --> 01:00:26,040
was like this frantic race to the local

1253
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:28,740
hospital by the time they got there his

1254
01:00:32,300 --> 01:00:30,720
scheme wasn't just paling it was it was

1255
01:00:34,220 --> 01:00:32,310
falling off him and he wasn't just he's

1256
01:00:35,810 --> 01:00:34,230
he's out a scheme either like with a

1257
01:00:38,599 --> 01:00:35,820
sunburn you know when your skin peels

1258
01:00:43,490 --> 01:00:38,609
he's like his flesh was started to

1259
01:00:45,770 --> 01:00:43,500
literally creep off of his bones the

1260
01:00:49,070 --> 01:00:45,780
hospital reportedly they rushed him in

1261
01:00:51,410 --> 01:00:49,080
and the doctors looked at him and had no

1262
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:51,420
clue what was going on they could just

1263
01:00:55,849 --> 01:00:53,010
literally stand there it was all they

1264
01:00:58,670 --> 01:00:55,859
could do as his body essentially melted

1265
01:01:01,550 --> 01:00:58,680
now it sounds like a sci-fi type story

1266
01:01:02,810 --> 01:01:01,560
and you sometimes in these situations

1267
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:02,820
you think well there's just give me no

1268
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:03,930
way to back this up

1269
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:06,770
but fortunately from the perspective of

1270
01:01:10,819 --> 01:01:08,730
the research

1271
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:10,829
that actually is a number of the paper

1272
01:01:17,150 --> 01:01:14,250
involved came forward years later to

1273
01:01:20,210 --> 01:01:17,160
100% confirm the event one of them was a

1274
01:01:22,910 --> 01:01:20,220
medic nama-rasa comité who came forward

1275
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:22,920
in 1974 and confirmed the events and

1276
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:25,170
people were able to confirm also that he

1277
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:28,050
did work at the hospital and was on duty

1278
01:01:35,540 --> 01:01:31,520
at night and so on and he talked about

1279
01:01:38,060 --> 01:01:35,550
but actually seeing the guy brought in

1280
01:01:40,460 --> 01:01:38,070
and how he saw had this bizarre melting

1281
01:01:43,790 --> 01:01:40,470
experience so the fact that we've got

1282
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:43,800
known unnamed people from the hospital

1283
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:46,890
he's a bonus in terms of vindicating the

1284
01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:49,440
story and it's one that really he's

1285
01:01:53,839 --> 01:01:51,359
almost like unique which is a good in a

1286
01:01:55,370 --> 01:01:53,849
good way you know the idea of somebody

1287
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:55,380
having those skin melted off them

1288
01:01:59,960 --> 01:01:57,210
there's there's really nothing else like

1289
01:02:02,300 --> 01:01:59,970
that in the UFO subject no there's that

1290
01:02:05,180 --> 01:02:02,310
one case in Canada where the guy had

1291
01:02:07,099 --> 01:02:05,190
grill marks on him yeah here's another

1292
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:07,109
question on the message board someone

1293
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:08,490
wants to know if you address Phil

1294
01:02:15,260 --> 01:02:12,960
Snyder's death I don't mainly just for

1295
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:15,270
one reason that the contract side with

1296
01:02:20,839 --> 01:02:18,210
the publisher limited me to 65,000 words

1297
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:20,849
so the challenge was to you know include

1298
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:22,890
what I could and sometimes you had to be

1299
01:02:26,359 --> 01:02:24,720
left out I actually could have made the

1300
01:02:29,569 --> 01:02:26,369
book like a hundred thousand words but

1301
01:02:31,970 --> 01:02:29,579
but what I would say is that the Phil

1302
01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:31,980
Schneider's death is like Morris Jessup

1303
01:02:36,349 --> 01:02:33,240
you know it's one of these that was

1304
01:02:39,290 --> 01:02:36,359
passed off as suicide but did not look

1305
01:02:41,329 --> 01:02:39,300
like suicide and Snyder was one be the

1306
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:41,339
insiders who was talking about

1307
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:44,910
underground bases and the Dulcie rumors

1308
01:02:51,050 --> 01:02:46,890
of an underground base at Dulce New

1309
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:51,060
Mexico and and and there are a lot of

1310
01:02:56,540 --> 01:02:52,880
anomalies with his death as well and

1311
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:56,550
again kind of like with Forrestal I mean

1312
01:03:01,099 --> 01:02:58,319
somebody you know an entire book could

1313
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:01,109
be written on Snyder's death it's a very

1314
01:03:06,260 --> 01:03:03,930
strange wonder sort of lazy open as to

1315
01:03:08,599 --> 01:03:06,270
whether it was suicide or not but I mean

1316
01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:08,609
he was touching on and talking about a

1317
01:03:14,349 --> 01:03:11,700
lot of you know controversial issues

1318
01:03:16,700 --> 01:03:14,359
much of them to do with sort of

1319
01:03:18,250 --> 01:03:16,710
government conspiracies you know

1320
01:03:20,420 --> 01:03:18,260
political things

1321
01:03:24,260 --> 01:03:20,430
military things nothing to do with UFOs

1322
01:03:26,359 --> 01:03:24,270
so maybe that angle possibly had you

1323
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:26,369
know at least an equal he's not more of

1324
01:03:31,130 --> 01:03:28,890
a bearing on it as well right to me one

1325
01:03:34,430 --> 01:03:31,140
of the most fascinating cases is the

1326
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:34,440
Thomas mantle the high altitude crash

1327
01:03:40,370 --> 01:03:36,960
you know he may have just passed out but

1328
01:03:42,170 --> 01:03:40,380
the the whole story is when he hit the

1329
01:03:44,930 --> 01:03:42,180
high altitude but the whole story is

1330
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:44,940
that you know they were trying to say it

1331
01:03:49,609 --> 01:03:47,130
was things like Venus and you know crazy

1332
01:03:51,770 --> 01:03:49,619
things like that when you know a number

1333
01:03:53,150 --> 01:03:51,780
of people cited this thing can you go

1334
01:03:55,550 --> 01:03:53,160
into that case a little bit for the

1335
01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:55,560
person who may not have heard it yeah

1336
01:04:02,000 --> 01:03:57,930
well Thomas Mantell was a guy pi was

1337
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:02,010
very well respected and he had a sort of

1338
01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:03,810
career from the Second World War very

1339
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:05,700
well trained pilots you know lots of

1340
01:04:12,339 --> 01:04:08,250
experience and he died on January the

1341
01:04:14,660 --> 01:04:12,349
7th 1948 he was on board an aircraft

1342
01:04:17,140 --> 01:04:14,670
along with three other aircraft they

1343
01:04:20,030 --> 01:04:17,150
were flying back from a training mission

1344
01:04:24,770 --> 01:04:20,040
to godwyn Army Airfield which that's a

1345
01:04:27,650 --> 01:04:24,780
portion of Fort Knox in Kentucky and the

1346
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:27,660
ground personnel at the base had been

1347
01:04:34,250 --> 01:04:30,810
watching this strange object high in the

1348
01:04:36,589 --> 01:04:34,260
sky and at a distance for something like

1349
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:36,599
an hour or so I could not figure out

1350
01:04:38,839 --> 01:04:37,440
what it was

1351
01:04:40,130 --> 01:04:38,849
the were thoughts he could have been a

1352
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:40,140
balloon but it was totally stationary

1353
01:04:44,089 --> 01:04:42,510
which you know doesn't happen when

1354
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:44,099
you've got winds and so forth and I'm

1355
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:47,839
just gonna hang there so as the guys

1356
01:04:53,180 --> 01:04:50,730
return from their flight don't mind a

1357
01:04:56,089 --> 01:04:53,190
four of them they were flying p-51

1358
01:04:58,099 --> 01:04:56,099
Mustangs and the ground personnel said

1359
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,109
you know can you vector in and have a

1360
01:05:03,410 --> 01:05:00,720
look and say what this object is because

1361
01:05:06,260 --> 01:05:03,420
we just haven't got a clue now he turned

1362
01:05:09,740 --> 01:05:06,270
out none of the guys actually had oxygen

1363
01:05:15,230 --> 01:05:09,750
equipment and oxygen masks one of the

1364
01:05:17,599 --> 01:05:15,240
planes was low on fuel so what happened

1365
01:05:21,140 --> 01:05:17,609
was that the plane it was low on fuel

1366
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:21,150
landed another pilot was slightly

1367
01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:23,970
disoriented from lack of oxygen and so

1368
01:05:29,900 --> 01:05:27,960
he decided to land and one of the other

1369
01:05:32,059 --> 01:05:29,910
planes as a precaution sort of shadowed

1370
01:05:33,979 --> 01:05:32,069
him down to the ground which meant that

1371
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:33,989
originally for planes there was no

1372
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:36,930
suddenly just one and so Mantell was the

1373
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:39,119
guy who said well yeah you know I'll go

1374
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:41,910
and see what it is so he took his plane

1375
01:05:47,719 --> 01:05:45,690
to a height of about 15,000 feet and

1376
01:05:49,999 --> 01:05:47,729
said that he could now see the object

1377
01:05:52,339 --> 01:05:50,009
fairly clearly and he described it as

1378
01:05:55,180 --> 01:05:52,349
sort of bright gleaming and very very

1379
01:05:58,969 --> 01:05:55,190
large and just hanging in the sky now

1380
01:06:01,459 --> 01:05:58,979
bear in mind 15,000 feet we've got with

1381
01:06:03,229 --> 01:06:01,469
no oxygen he's a you know a bit of a

1382
01:06:06,279 --> 01:06:03,239
face I mean if you walk up a mountain

1383
01:06:08,479 --> 01:06:06,289
15,000 feet and you've got no oxygen

1384
01:06:11,059 --> 01:06:08,489
painful do you know people become

1385
01:06:14,449 --> 01:06:11,069
exhausted quickly they become dizzy and

1386
01:06:16,729 --> 01:06:14,459
you know still in vertigo and and it's

1387
01:06:18,620 --> 01:06:16,739
not surprising now when he actually got

1388
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:18,630
his plane to it sort of ultimate high

1389
01:06:23,269 --> 01:06:21,690
which was around 25,000 feet what

1390
01:06:24,709 --> 01:06:23,279
happened was at the plane men suddenly

1391
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:24,719
plunged to the ground

1392
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:27,599
now the beam theories that he may been

1393
01:06:33,199 --> 01:06:30,930
zapped by a UFO we can never rule that

1394
01:06:35,719 --> 01:06:33,209
out I think he's probably more likely

1395
01:06:38,029 --> 01:06:35,729
than he did pass out through oxygen

1396
01:06:39,499 --> 01:06:38,039
deprivation but that doesn't take away

1397
01:06:41,299 --> 01:06:39,509
the fact that the whole reason why he

1398
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:41,309
was flying that high was because he was

1399
01:06:44,329 --> 01:06:43,680
pursuing this object or trying to close

1400
01:06:48,289 --> 01:06:44,339
in on it

1401
01:06:50,900 --> 01:06:48,299
so regardless of whether the UFO was

1402
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:50,910
responsible for his death the fact is he

1403
01:06:53,420 --> 01:06:52,079
wouldn't beat up at that height if there

1404
01:06:58,279 --> 01:06:53,430
wasn't a UFO there in the first place

1405
01:07:00,140 --> 01:06:58,289
now there are two various and wildly

1406
01:07:01,939 --> 01:07:00,150
varying theories put forward for his

1407
01:07:05,059 --> 01:07:01,949
death one was that he was mistakenly

1408
01:07:08,509 --> 01:07:05,069
chasing the planet Venus and perceived

1409
01:07:11,390 --> 01:07:08,519
like a faraway object had a closer level

1410
01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:11,400
that theories thrown out the window when

1411
01:07:16,239 --> 01:07:13,559
he was proved that even during daylight

1412
01:07:19,549 --> 01:07:16,249
and at that altitude Venus wasn't

1413
01:07:22,339 --> 01:07:19,559
viewable and of course why should if he

1414
01:07:23,930 --> 01:07:22,349
was there you know every other day

1415
01:07:25,699 --> 01:07:23,940
whatever when the or but you know I've

1416
01:07:27,890 --> 01:07:25,709
allowed it to be seen why was it never

1417
01:07:30,739 --> 01:07:27,900
seen on any other occasion by the ground

1418
01:07:33,229 --> 01:07:30,749
crew or Islands why was he just on this

1419
01:07:35,359 --> 01:07:33,239
one occasion so that thing he didn't

1420
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:35,369
really hard much water the second theory

1421
01:07:40,819 --> 01:07:37,890
that was put forward for man tells death

1422
01:07:43,530 --> 01:07:40,829
was that he mistakenly intercepted a

1423
01:07:46,050 --> 01:07:43,540
skyhook balloon these were new

1424
01:07:49,260 --> 01:07:46,060
the village was flying at the time the

1425
01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:49,270
problem with that theory is that sky of

1426
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:51,760
balloons you know they would response to

1427
01:07:56,010 --> 01:07:53,890
me to be draught and the and the winds

1428
01:07:58,500 --> 01:07:56,020
and so on this thing was clearly

1429
01:08:01,050 --> 01:07:58,510
stationary for more than an hour so it

1430
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:01,060
suggests that it wasn't a skylit balloon

1431
01:08:07,470 --> 01:08:05,170
now Captain Edward ruppelt who was the

1432
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:07,480
first head of project Bluebook one of

1433
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:09,610
the early UFO study programs at the Air

1434
01:08:15,090 --> 01:08:12,130
Force put together even he came to

1435
01:08:18,450 --> 01:08:15,100
believe that the balloon and the Venus

1436
01:08:21,599 --> 01:08:18,460
theory didn't hold water that's that man

1437
01:08:24,990 --> 01:08:21,609
tell potentially had viewed a genuine

1438
01:08:28,370 --> 01:08:25,000
UFO what are the way of things about

1439
01:08:31,530 --> 01:08:28,380
this particular case is the nature of

1440
01:08:33,809 --> 01:08:31,540
man tells body after it was recovered

1441
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:33,819
from the crash you know normally if you

1442
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:36,250
have a sort of very bad aircraft crash

1443
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:38,530
you know when they talk about you know

1444
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:40,420
recovering the bodies from the aircraft

1445
01:08:43,829 --> 01:08:42,130
very often the rats musn't much of a

1446
01:08:46,740 --> 01:08:43,839
body left you know very often they're

1447
01:08:49,010 --> 01:08:46,750
just pummeled in the accident but the

1448
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:49,020
weird thing is and this actually comes

1449
01:08:53,940 --> 01:08:51,370
is why this is important this actually

1450
01:08:56,370 --> 01:08:53,950
comes from a very credible source who

1451
01:08:58,680 --> 01:08:56,380
under you know any other circumstances

1452
01:09:00,210 --> 01:08:58,690
no one would even consider questioning

1453
01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:00,220
his word this is a man named Captain

1454
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:02,560
James duesler he's actually a deputy

1455
01:09:08,940 --> 01:09:06,480
commander a Godman Air Force Base where

1456
01:09:11,370 --> 01:09:08,950
Mantell was based and he said that he

1457
01:09:13,380 --> 01:09:11,380
actually saw man tells body after we've

1458
01:09:15,570 --> 01:09:13,390
recovered and there was not even a

1459
01:09:17,910 --> 01:09:15,580
single scratch or a little bit of blood

1460
01:09:20,430 --> 01:09:17,920
on the body at all apparently all of his

1461
01:09:22,829 --> 01:09:20,440
bones were shattered but there was not

1462
01:09:25,500 --> 01:09:22,839
one exterior mark on the body in the

1463
01:09:29,099 --> 01:09:25,510
slightest which you know he's kind of

1464
01:09:32,550 --> 01:09:29,109
strange 2/4 and 25,000 feet and not even

1465
01:09:34,260 --> 01:09:32,560
have a scratch and that in itself you

1466
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:34,270
know and coming from the deputy base

1467
01:09:37,710 --> 01:09:35,770
commander you know that sort of a

1468
01:09:39,780 --> 01:09:37,720
significant portion of the story many

1469
01:09:41,610 --> 01:09:39,790
people don't know them another very

1470
01:09:43,970 --> 01:09:41,620
compelling case that you talk about in

1471
01:09:47,579 --> 01:09:43,980
your book is the Frederick Valentich

1472
01:09:50,250 --> 01:09:47,589
case the the poor young kid 20 years old

1473
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:50,260
he's up in this small aircraft to going

1474
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:53,710
on a solo and you know sees this craft

1475
01:09:58,030 --> 01:09:56,320
it's scary scares him to death and you

1476
01:10:00,790 --> 01:09:58,040
know the radio

1477
01:10:03,879 --> 01:10:00,800
transmissions from that or the

1478
01:10:05,379 --> 01:10:03,889
transcripts are just just horrible can

1479
01:10:07,450 --> 01:10:05,389
you talk about that case a little for

1480
01:10:09,370 --> 01:10:07,460
someone who hasn't heard about it yeah

1481
01:10:12,189 --> 01:10:09,380
this is a weird one because he of

1482
01:10:13,959 --> 01:10:12,199
totally unexplained not with a confirmed

1483
01:10:17,069 --> 01:10:13,969
death but with a complete total

1484
01:10:19,629 --> 01:10:17,079
disappearance right back on October 21st

1485
01:10:21,339 --> 01:10:19,639
1978 and Frederick Pawlenty Chism said

1486
01:10:24,609 --> 01:10:21,349
he was only 20 years of age at the time

1487
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:24,619
but he's very skilled pilots actually

1488
01:10:31,810 --> 01:10:27,409
got he's his pilot license when he was

1489
01:10:33,069 --> 01:10:31,820
like 18 or 19 and he was flying on that

1490
01:10:34,839 --> 01:10:33,079
particular night from a place called

1491
01:10:37,330 --> 01:10:34,849
Moorabbin air tours which is in

1492
01:10:39,970 --> 01:10:37,340
melbourne australia and he was flying a

1493
01:10:41,379 --> 01:10:39,980
small Cessna 182 aircraft and he was

1494
01:10:44,740 --> 01:10:41,389
supposedly flying to a place called

1495
01:10:47,020 --> 01:10:44,750
Kings Island Victoria which was I think

1496
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:47,030
ran about 120 hundred 25 miles away

1497
01:10:52,859 --> 01:10:49,489
something like that over an area called

1498
01:10:55,510 --> 01:10:52,869
the Bass Strait well the the flights

1499
01:10:57,790 --> 01:10:55,520
began as normal you know he took to the

1500
01:11:00,760 --> 01:10:57,800
skies he was in regular contact with the

1501
01:11:03,189 --> 01:11:00,770
ground personnel and so on and then he

1502
01:11:05,649 --> 01:11:03,199
reported something strange that he

1503
01:11:07,839 --> 01:11:05,659
actually asked the ground radar people

1504
01:11:10,270 --> 01:11:07,849
if there was any other aircraft in the

1505
01:11:13,180 --> 01:11:10,280
area actually below him several thousand

1506
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:13,190
feet they said no they won't trap you

1507
01:11:17,950 --> 01:11:15,530
anything else in the media terian

1508
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:17,960
certainly nothing directly below him so

1509
01:11:23,770 --> 01:11:21,290
he kind of shrugged it off and just

1510
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:23,780
carried on flying but he could still see

1511
01:11:27,879 --> 01:11:25,520
this thing which he described as a large

1512
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:27,889
aircraft but he couldn't figure out what

1513
01:11:32,740 --> 01:11:31,010
kind because the light array wasn't like

1514
01:11:35,229 --> 01:11:32,750
the regular light that you would see on

1515
01:11:37,629 --> 01:11:35,239
an aircraft at night and so he couldn't

1516
01:11:39,580 --> 01:11:37,639
confirm what it was he was just brightly

1517
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:39,590
lit by four lights you know it wasn't

1518
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:41,210
like this sort of typical green red and

1519
01:11:49,330 --> 01:11:44,800
white light that you see on a plane and

1520
01:11:51,790 --> 01:11:49,340
whatever it was he actually closed in on

1521
01:11:54,370 --> 01:11:51,800
Valenta G's aircraft and he reported all

1522
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:54,380
this live so to speak as he was speaking

1523
01:11:59,200 --> 01:11:57,290
to the the radar people and this

1524
01:12:02,439 --> 01:11:59,210
conversation was actually recorded as

1525
01:12:04,540 --> 01:12:02,449
well by the ground personnel and it was

1526
01:12:05,500 --> 01:12:04,550
almost as if it was playing like a game

1527
01:12:07,540 --> 01:12:05,510
of cat-and-mouse

1528
01:12:09,779 --> 01:12:07,550
you know closing in but not actually

1529
01:12:13,740 --> 01:12:09,789
taking any sort of

1530
01:12:14,939 --> 01:12:13,750
direct action so to speak now he

1531
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:14,949
actually said at one point the other

1532
01:12:18,450 --> 01:12:17,050
thing was orbiting him you know as if it

1533
01:12:24,089 --> 01:12:18,460
was just sort of circling overhead

1534
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:24,099
somehow and a very low level and this is

1535
01:12:28,319 --> 01:12:26,650
when he got sort of really scared and he

1536
01:12:31,140 --> 01:12:28,329
decided the best thing to do is to try

1537
01:12:34,020 --> 01:12:31,150
and continue on to King Island and then

1538
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:34,030
just land the plane and his last words

1539
01:12:38,430 --> 01:12:36,010
were it's hovering and it's not an

1540
01:12:39,930 --> 01:12:38,440
aircraft and what was weird was

1541
01:12:42,959 --> 01:12:39,940
immediately after that there was this

1542
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:42,969
sort of strange metallic / electronic

1543
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:45,610
noise that went on for number of seconds

1544
01:12:51,330 --> 01:12:48,400
and that was the last he was who's ever

1545
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:51,340
heard of now because there are concerns

1546
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:54,489
that he may have crashed emergency

1547
01:12:58,770 --> 01:12:56,320
personnel were sent out extremely

1548
01:13:02,129 --> 01:12:58,780
quickly we're talking about like Coast

1549
01:13:04,649 --> 01:13:02,139
Guard people military emergency teams

1550
01:13:06,810 --> 01:13:04,659
even people in the local boats or asked

1551
01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:06,820
you know can you ever look round have

1552
01:13:10,799 --> 01:13:08,409
you seen anything crash out of the sky

1553
01:13:12,810 --> 01:13:10,809
descent explosions there was nothing

1554
01:13:17,250 --> 01:13:12,820
there was no oil slicks no gasoline

1555
01:13:19,589 --> 01:13:17,260
slicks no wreckage nobody saw anything

1556
01:13:22,169 --> 01:13:19,599
is fall from the sky for all intents and

1557
01:13:24,569 --> 01:13:22,179
purposes polenta Chinese plane were just

1558
01:13:27,270 --> 01:13:24,579
gone literally gone they you've never

1559
01:13:29,580 --> 01:13:27,280
been seen again despite various attempts

1560
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:29,590
to to find him and the different

1561
01:13:32,850 --> 01:13:31,210
theories that what if he staged the

1562
01:13:35,310 --> 01:13:32,860
events and you know started a new life

1563
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:35,320
somewhere else nothing like that has

1564
01:13:40,919 --> 01:13:38,289
ever been even remotely you know proved

1565
01:13:42,899 --> 01:13:40,929
to be the case so this is a case where

1566
01:13:45,750 --> 01:13:42,909
as I said at the beginning of this

1567
01:13:48,839 --> 01:13:45,760
particular section that we can't say for

1568
01:13:51,060 --> 01:13:48,849
sure his murder or you know he died but

1569
01:13:53,250 --> 01:13:51,070
he definitely vanished and never

1570
01:13:55,890 --> 01:13:53,260
surfaced again and I mean he wouldn't be

1571
01:14:00,000 --> 01:13:55,900
an old guy now it would be we're talking

1572
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:00,010
25 35 years ago so he would be 55 54

1573
01:14:04,500 --> 01:14:01,449
mm-hmm

1574
01:14:07,290 --> 01:14:04,510
so you know as I said it's chances are

1575
01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:07,300
that had he survived I mean you know he

1576
01:14:10,979 --> 01:14:08,710
would still be ready to talk about the

1577
01:14:12,990 --> 01:14:10,989
events so it's a very very weird and

1578
01:14:16,020 --> 01:14:13,000
mysterious one but the important thing

1579
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:16,030
is it's actually supported by a huge

1580
01:14:20,129 --> 01:14:18,250
official file on the case which runs to

1581
01:14:22,140 --> 01:14:20,139
hundreds of pages which is now surfaced

1582
01:14:23,100 --> 01:14:22,150
through the Australian Freedom of

1583
01:14:25,470 --> 01:14:23,110
Information Act

1584
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:25,480
and tells the entire story from from

1585
01:14:28,290 --> 01:14:26,410
beginning to end

1586
01:14:30,870 --> 01:14:28,300
yeah it's almost you could almost

1587
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:30,880
speculate that he and his plane were

1588
01:14:36,180 --> 01:14:33,250
both abducted actually I'm yeah you

1589
01:14:37,890 --> 01:14:36,190
could speculate that for sure I exactly

1590
01:14:41,490 --> 01:14:37,900
what happened especially when you hear

1591
01:14:43,590 --> 01:14:41,500
the the metal the metal noises so Nick

1592
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:43,600
this is a great book Close Encounters of

1593
01:14:47,700 --> 01:14:45,970
the fatal kind and that you can find

1594
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:47,710
that on Amazon we also have a link on

1595
01:14:52,110 --> 01:14:50,170
our website what do you have coming up

1596
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:52,120
your you right all the time are you

1597
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:54,250
writing something right now yeah well

1598
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:55,840
I've got a lot of different interests I

1599
01:14:59,100 --> 01:14:57,280
actually got a book I do like a

1600
01:15:00,780 --> 01:14:59,110
co-authored one with Brad Steiner it

1601
01:15:02,370 --> 01:15:00,790
comes out in September it's called the

1602
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:02,380
zombie both came it's like an A to Z of

1603
01:15:08,730 --> 01:15:04,810
everything to do with zombies in movie

1604
01:15:11,070 --> 01:15:08,740
TV novels folklore history so it covers

1605
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:11,080
everything like The Walking Dead Dawn of

1606
01:15:15,540 --> 01:15:13,600
the Dead but also things like ancient

1607
01:15:17,370 --> 01:15:15,550
Egyptian traditions on how the Dead

1608
01:15:19,650 --> 01:15:17,380
could supposedly be brought back to life

1609
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:19,660
and their entry there's like 500 entries

1610
01:15:25,890 --> 01:15:22,690
in the book on different subjects and

1611
01:15:27,630 --> 01:15:25,900
this entries on on viruses you know is

1612
01:15:30,090 --> 01:15:27,640
there anything close to the real zombie

1613
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:30,100
virus you know that kind of thing so

1614
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:32,050
that book will be out in September and

1615
01:15:35,490 --> 01:15:33,690
my other big interest which is

1616
01:15:38,220 --> 01:15:35,500
cryptozoology the study of unknown

1617
01:15:39,630 --> 01:15:38,230
animals yeah I have a new book coming

1618
01:15:43,380 --> 01:15:39,640
out on that all month but all that my

1619
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:43,390
expeditions into the chupacabra various

1620
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:44,770
expeditions are being on to Puerto Rico

1621
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:46,690
looking for the chupacabra that be sort

1622
01:15:52,170 --> 01:15:49,930
of like a roadtrip book of me sort of

1623
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:52,180
writing around porto rico looking for

1624
01:15:55,620 --> 01:15:53,890
the chupacabra and stopping off and

1625
01:15:58,290 --> 01:15:55,630
having a margarita here and there or

1626
01:16:00,450 --> 01:15:58,300
whatever both books sound great actually

1627
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:00,460
thanks so much Nick for joining us and

1628
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:03,280
I'll have you back again after you write

1629
01:16:09,180 --> 01:16:07,120
another UFO book alright great well

1630
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:09,190
that's it for the show today you can

1631
01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:11,890
check out links to the Chilean UFO

1632
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:14,560
photos etc our guest next week will be

1633
01:16:18,450 --> 01:16:16,480
Stan Gordon I want to thank everyone for

1634
01:16:22,260 --> 01:16:18,460
helping out with the show today our

1635
01:16:23,900 --> 01:16:22,270
guests of course Leslie cane Jose ly and

1636
01:16:26,550 --> 01:16:23,910
Nick Redfern

1637
01:16:27,780 --> 01:16:26,560
Keith Rowland producer for the dark

1638
01:16:30,090 --> 01:16:27,790
matter radio network

1639
01:16:32,580 --> 01:16:30,100
Andy Fleming we'll be back next week

1640
01:16:34,890 --> 01:16:32,590
Carrie Lloyd Whitehouse for our music

1641
01:16:37,050 --> 01:16:34,900
Peggy shining for managing our Facebook

1642
01:16:40,740 --> 01:16:37,060
page and remember to like us on

1643
01:16:42,420 --> 01:16:40,750
Facebook for all the latest UFO news you

1644
01:16:43,860 --> 01:16:42,430
can check us out live next week

1645
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:43,870
right here at the Dark Matter Radio

1646
01:16:48,570 --> 01:16:46,690
Network and every Wednesday at 9 p.m.

1647
01:16:51,330 --> 01:16:48,580
Eastern Standard Time and don't forget

1648
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:51,340
to jump in our chat room at podcast UFO

1649
01:16:56,790 --> 01:16:53,890
comm this is Martyn Willis reminding you